Military Recruiters and schools
Update: Welcome visitors and commenters from the Daou Report
I’ve also responded to the first 12 comments in the following post above (The other comments arrived after that post was put up, but I promise to reply to all the comments)
A quick thought on the topic:
What’s with all the carping by many a vocal segment on the left-side of the political spectrum (that doesn’t mean all those on the left, but just some) about letting the Military send recruiters into Public Schools? I remember every so often seing representatives from the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines (the Air Force came the least) in the cafeteria occasionally at school.
There were kids who tallked with the recuiters b/c they were interested…and most of the time, the recruiters just had giveaways for people (e.g. Mousepads, lanyards, etc.)
I don’t see what the big deal is with letting recruiters for the military into gov’t property? (Note: I’ve been corrected, I forgot that schools are local gov’t property, not Fed. property)
Also on the topic of giving recruiters addresses…again, what’s the big deal? When many students take their standardized tests (e.g. PSAT, SAT, ACT) there’s a bubble that you can fill in to share your info with colleges and universities (and you proceed to get a lot of mail from random schools)–but the Military likely also gets your info. So what’s wrong with that?
On top of it all, when boys turn 18, we’ve gotta register with Selective Service, and guess what–the Military can get our addresses from there too! Gasp
I fail to understand what all the whining and carping is about…
Update: I’ve clarified myself and fixed some of my errors in a follow-up post above on the blog
Maybe people (left or right) are no longer willing to send their kids to fight?
Comment by Adam — 6/29/2005 @ 2:05 pm
I’m fine with them handing out mousepads in a corner of the cafeteria. I don’t want them calling my son at home.
Comment by Del — 6/29/2005 @ 2:18 pm
there are many problems.
first, as a parent, i’m responsible for my kid’s safety. in a time of war, there’s little difference, safety-wise, between keeping my kid out of a gang or keeping my kid out of the military. both significantly increase their chance of violent death.
second, kids interested in joining know where to find a recruiting office. i encourage them to do so. going into the schools and pressuring or enticing them to join, in an environment where they might not feel free to tell the recruiter to piss off, is dishonorable. say what you want about michael moore, he didn’t make up the scene in f9-11 depicting the recruiting team’s total lack of respect for their “marks”. i know salesmen are creeps by nature, but there’s a big difference between dishonesty when selling a car and when selling a potentially fatal career, especially one that demands you give up many of your constitutional freedoms.
third, this war is total crap. i’m not even gonna go into all the reasons why — i’d be here for the rest of the week.
but, out of those reasons, the most defensible are the first and second. keep the hell away from my kid. she knows where to find you.
Comment by dave. — 6/29/2005 @ 2:27 pm
I see what you mean. May I assume that you have plans to enlist or go the ROTC/OCS route? Or do you have “better things to do”?
Recruitment Links:
http://www.marines.com/default.asp
http://goarmy.com/flindex.jsp
Comment by brandon — 6/29/2005 @ 2:48 pm
Maybe some parents WORRY about the government lying to their kids and shipping them off to get killed. Very few parents read about their kid being killed at U of M.
Comment by Mad Matt — 6/29/2005 @ 3:03 pm
This should make it very clear: When I say “stay away from my kid”, I mean, “STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM MY KID!!!!!!” Get it? Good.
Comment by JRI — 6/29/2005 @ 3:09 pm
Putting up a table and giving out information about oppurtunities after gradeuation is one thing. But this Spring, in the high in which I teach, the military spent an entire week “endoctrinating” the physical education classes. Drill Sargeants went in and took the co-ed classes through fun drills and taught them the chants they do. Then on another occasion when a group of students went on a field trip to a contructions career day event, the marines were there in full force. They had a brightly painted Hummer outfitted with state of the art speaker systems and their presence was definitely known by all. They attracted the largest crowd and were giving away t-shirts to anyone who could pass a sit-ups test. The military is wooing our youth right under our noses in our schools, and there’s not a thing we can do about it. In my almost 20 years of teaching, mostly on the high school level, I have never seen this much of a military presence in our schools. You can’t make me think it’s coincidental. They need our children to fight their war. So they come in and play trying to make friends. Hope our children and their parents begin to see through their thinly veiled efforts.
Comment by Claire — 6/29/2005 @ 3:18 pm
As a member of the “left”, I have to say that I don’t really have a problem with it when it goes like the examples you cite. In fact, I tried to enlist in the Navy at 19 and was rejected because of health concerns. I come from a military family. Army on one side, Marines on the other with a broad spattering of Navy throughout.
However, I spend a fair amount of time at my local high schools (I work as an advocate for universal literacy; ESL, ABE and NCLB concerns) and often it goes beyond that. (At least currently, presumably because of recruiting shortfalls.) I’ve seen recruiters lie to students (specifically one recruiter who was telling kids that it was compulsory to sign up for his mailing list and reading them the selective service act when asked for proof.), coerce students under 18 to sign things (some of which were written so vaguely or convolutedly that I (with an MA in English) couldn’t understand them) without the presence of a parent or responsible party and pressuring students over 18 to commit to an appointment at their offices to discuss enlistment. I’ve contacted their superiors and been told they’d be talked to, but a week later they’re in the field again and still doing the same things.
I don’t have a problem with the presence of the recruiters, I don’t have a problem with young men and women wanting to enlist, I have a problem with the tactics of the recruiters towards those who clearly do not want to enlist or are hesitant. If any college recruiter was as coercive and underhanded towards the students as the military recruiters they’d be banned from campus.
Comment by Jamie — 6/29/2005 @ 3:24 pm
Government property? Since when are county, municipality and state owned schools the property of the FEDERAL government? Or did you forget there was a distinction? I’m ashamed of my fellow conservatives on these continual giveaways to Federal authority. Stating that the Federal government should have the right to gather information about my children so that it can try to convince them to go die in foreign wars goes against the values that I’ve always held close. Since when did conservatives start believing that the Federal government should have all these rights?
And as for your terrible SAT analogy. Filling out bubbles on those forms allow the testing agency to share that information with schools that ask for it. It has nothing to do with government. They aren’t government tests and the government doesn’t get that information. As for selective service information, that’s only used by the SELECTIVE SERVICE BOARD, when there’s a draft you idiot. The military doesn’t “get” that information. The Selective Service Boards are composed of civilians and the agency is not run by the military. If my son wants to join the military when he’s 18, I’m not gonna stop him. But I’m not gonna give the military his name either.
-Angry at fools
Comment by Warghul — 6/29/2005 @ 3:45 pm
Military recruiting is fundementally different than other recruiting. In particular, getting killed or maimed is a fundemental part of the job. Not so for fast food work or attending the local university.
Now personally, I don’t object to military recruiters being allow on campus. But I do feel they should be held to a very high standards: no high pressure sales pitches and honest presentation of facts, risks and what options they will actually have.
About addresses, you answered your own question. On the SAT, the bubble makes giving your address to universities YOUR choice: if you don’t want them to have your address, they don’t get it. But the Senate, in all its wisdom, decided schools should be required to give military recruiters your address, whether you or your parents want them to have it.
As to Selective Service, that happens at 18, when you are (in theory) an adult. Until then parents have a right to protect their children from what they regard as harmful.
Comment by Peter Moore — 6/29/2005 @ 4:55 pm
If the government can force my 17 year old daughter to inform be before she gets an abortion then I also want to be notified when someone is trying to talk my 17 year old daughter into getting her head blown off.
Comment by lmwilker — 6/29/2005 @ 5:21 pm
I also have a 17 year old daughter who is due to graduate next year, she has already gotten several recrutment letters. I don’t think she’s too interested, must have raised her left.
Comment by minneapolis rose — 6/29/2005 @ 6:00 pm
For “Angry at Fools”
Wake up fool. Since Bush & Co. took over, your right to privacy and your right to protect your children has been continually whittled away. They know who is turning eighteen. And they’ve already met them. One way or another they’ve made a pitch. And one way or another they’ll sucker in as many as they can.
Comment by Claire — 6/29/2005 @ 9:59 pm
jaws, it was probably the daou report.
looks like we have some cynics in the house.
if only we knew, back in ‘00, that the phrase “uniter, not a divider” would be the tip of the orwellian iceberg.
Comment by dave. — 6/29/2005 @ 10:49 pm
Yes it was the Daou Report that led me here. As a hopeless lefty and therefore someone who actually believes in freedom for all people and for the safety and honor of my country, I am in support of Military recruiters on Campus’s. My concern though is for ‘truth in advertising’. I think that any recruiter would be a fool to not stress the good aspects of their product as well as spinning the apparent downsides. Any advertiser or recruiter would do that. But If I don’t like a product I’ve bought, at the very least I don’t have to buy it again. If someone doesn’t like the college they attend, they can change schools (I know I did). That’s not so simple for ‘ArmyNavyAirForceMarines’ is it? The bar is just higher for Armed Services recruiters. And I would expect no less from our Gov’t.
Comment by Jeff — 6/30/2005 @ 10:23 am
I’d rather they spend $$ on armoring our troops, instead of handing out mousepads to prospective cannon fodder.
Comment by heather — 6/30/2005 @ 1:35 pm
I guess you are right, why not just send our kids to a government sponsored programming center where the government determines what our children will be programed for: Consuming Pizza Hut, Pepsi, the Army, etc…
Does the United nations or the State Department have equal access? Should the Pentagon in a joint venture with schools have this kind of influence on the future occupations of our children? Are there other similar private and public entities that have similar access benefits?
You and your white kids will be just fine. They ask for race and income so they will target poorer children first. That’s math at the Pentagon.
Like many Republicans, I believe in small government. We will allow the government to collect our tax money to help organize public schools, but certainly not program our kids for their economic interests.
Carpingly yours,
Elisabeth Luntz
Comment by Elisabeth Luntz — 6/30/2005 @ 3:35 pm
What’s with sweeping statements like ‘many on the left’ as if ‘many on the right and many in the center’ don’t feel the exact same way and have the same comments and concerns.
- I am concerned about the US Military having more access to my daughter than other educational instituation.
- I am concerned by the complete lack of honesty and integrity that is displayed in the ‘quota filling’ engaged in by the US military during recruitment. As a recruited Desert Storm combat veteran I have first hand experience with blatent lying, misinformation and extremely pushy and insistant recruiters who’s only goal is to ‘get the numbers up’.
- I am concerned that there isn’t an obvious and communicated ‘opt-op’ procedure where I, as a parent, can sign a form restricting my daughter from attending any presentations by the US Military.
- I am concerned that middle and lower income people are favorite fodder for combat based on decisions made by an elite few.
All of these concerns seem quite valid to me as a parent and might shed some light on your question:
“What’s with all the carping by many on the left about letting the Military send recruiters into Public Schools?”
Regards,
Locker
Comment by Locker — 6/30/2005 @ 4:38 pm
I was an ROTC volunteer during Viet Nam, and joined the Army in 1968, not because I believed in the war, but because I was raised to believe that it is the duty of a citizen to come to the aid of one’s country in time of need. I guess I was a sucker.
Comment by masaccio — 6/30/2005 @ 4:44 pm
Responding to comments 15-19 (in no specific order)
masaccio–thank you for your service to our country. Vietnam was way before my time, but nevertheless, thank you for serving.
Locker–please see my second post in which I responded to many of the comments. In short, I rephrased my wording to eliminate the sweeping statements; pushed for a truth-in-advertising type of promise/expectation. I’ve also addressed the whole opt-out idea as well. As for the military getting mroe info on students than colleges–I think they essentially get the same info.
I’m also somewhat skeptical about the whole class-as-fodder approach as well.
Elizabeth–I wish for smaller gov’t as well…alas, it seems like a dissapearing notion these days. But that’s a discussion for another time. The UN should have no access what so ever to our public schools–zip, zero, nada. I think that the Pentagon should only be given the same access benefits to students in school that other colleges/univs. get. Simple enough.
Jeff–thanks for the heads up on the referral. I’m suprised a blog as small as mine was picked up by the Daou report. Nevertheless, I think there really needs to be truth-in-advertising, and I have an even higher bar set for the armed forces than I do for most things.
Comment by Jaws — 6/30/2005 @ 10:14 pm
I will tell you what, I am so surprised by the IGNORANCE of some of these people. I really like the “Your white kids will be just fine”. You sound like a bigot. Not every person is fit for college, and alot of people want to go but guess what………GASP… they cant afford it!!!!!! And alot of the times (if they are like me)your parents dont have the money to pay for it. Oh yes there are student loans, quick fix right, not really. I work at a universtiy and the average student that has reached his/her JUNIOR year is already in debt $80,000 and trust me this is no Yale. I chose to join the military that changed my life for the better, I not only got great educational benifits but I also got outstanding training, and yes I did fight in Iraq and neither my unit nor myself got maimed. (by the way we did countless convoys and patrols throughout hot spots, we didnt stay in the rear with gear). I was 22yrs old when I was hired by a multi national security firm with a starting salary of 60K, yes that may not sound like alot to some but for a 22yr old that used to be a grill cook before the Army, thats a pretty decent living. Perhaps you wonder why…….. it was because of my military experience. I understand why some may be upset with the war, and that is fine but let me tell you something, there is a small flame in certain people, not all but certain people that want to be apart of something bigger than themselves..they will give their life for the person sitting in the foxhole with them and most importantly for their country, we call them SERVICE MEMBERS. They are willing to do what you dont want to, they are the reason you have the right to say what you want in these blogs. Many have died in the past to give you the rights that you have to say what you want and burn the Flag that many have died for. Im not pro or anti war, im a Soldier and very proud of it, I sleep alone in distant places so you can cuddle by a nice fire with your loved ones. Please I dont want you to feel sorry for me I chose to do it, I have that flame….but if I never met a recruiter it would have blown out along time ago.
PS I wonder if they complained about the military when America fought for its freedom back in the day. Just something to think about.
Comment by Dave — 3/8/2007 @ 11:51 pm